The Type A+ Podcast Episode 50 - Type A People & Wellness with Organizational Psychologist Dr. Aly Goldstein of On the Goga
Listen Now!
Episode Description:
Beth is joined this week by Dr. Aly Goldstein, COO and Co-Founder of On the Goga and Organizational Psychologist, who shares her experience coaching leaders of all different styles, how Type A leaders can be a benefit—and a detriment—to organizational cultures, and why taking time off can be so difficult.
About Dr. Aly Goldstein:
Dr. Aly Goldstein, PsyD, MBA is the Chief Operating Officer and Co-Founder at On The Goga. As a licensed Organizational Psychologist trained in business management, she leads On The Goga’s organizational development initiatives, with a core focus on customer experience, product development, and team growth. She has been an adjunct professor of Organizational Psychology for doctorate students at Widener University. Prior to entering the world of organizational and leadership development, Aly held positions as a public school teacher, school psychologist, and clinical psychologist.
Links mentioned in the episode:
WEBSITE:
The Type A Plus Podcast Instagram
HOST:
Beth Lawrence & Company Instagram
Beth and other Type A+ Guests will be back each week, delivering bite-sized tips on how to optimize your work and life.
GUEST:
Episode Transcript can be found below:
Beth Lawrence: Hello, type a plus listeners. This is Beth Lawrence, your host, and welcome back to the type a plus podcast. I am thrilled today to welcome Dr. Ali Goldstein. Dr. Ali is a friend. and she's my boss and one of my roles and also a colleague in a lot of ways. And she's someone that I really look up to in business.
I'm really excited to introduce you to her. Ali, would you introduce yourself to the audience?
Dr. Aly Goldstein: Thanks so much for having me, Beth. I'm super happy to talk with you today. I'm Dr. Aly. I'm a clinical and organizational psychologist. I'm currently the COO and co founder at Onthegoga an employee wellbeing company and I have been working at Onthegoga for a couple of years doing a lot of organizational development, leadership, product development type roles.
And before that, I have experience in leadership development, executive coaching, the organizational psychology world, as well as child and family therapy and psychodiagnostic assessment. So a lot of experience across the board of both clinical and workplace psychology.
Beth Lawrence: That is so exciting and cool.
In my teenage years, I thought I wanted to be a psychologist. And then when I realized what that actually entailed, I was like, I do not have that in me. And I admire it so much, especially because you look at it, not only from the individual perspective, but you also look at it.
From a collective perspective when it comes to organizational psychology, and that must be fascinating to have both sides of that.
Dr. Aly Goldstein: Yeah, absolutely I love looking at things both like what is the individual experience, but also what are the collection of other factors Influencing that person that person has influence on within a system, right?
Like in their home life or at work or at school wherever anybody is existing, there's a whole kind of ecological.
Beth Lawrence: Oh, fascinating. And for the listeners, just a little background. I've been working On the Goga with Aly for about a year now. And it is such a human first company. It really is a revelation, especially for me, someone who came from the hospitality world, which just is very different.
It's not a very nurturing environment. And, I really love the culture that you're building and I would love to know, what is the definition from a psychological perspective of a type A person?
How does that show up? Yeah,
Dr. Aly Goldstein: and when you said, about becoming a psychologist, I was thinking how being a type A person was really helpful in getting through all school and that kind of thing. There's a couple different definitions for type A personality, but I really like to think of it as a collection of behaviors, characteristic patterns. It's really oriented around this high achieving, perfectionistic, really consistent, reliable, but also can be high stress at times, right? Because of that perfectionism. So it's really more a collection of specific traits, than one specific definition because, you know, there's probably a ton of different type A people out in the world and it's all going to show up differently for each person.
Beth Lawrence: Oh, yeah, I guess that absolutely makes sense. In your personal and professional opinion, do you think that being type A is influenced by external factors as well? Or is it something that you're inherently born with?
Dr. Aly Goldstein: Yeah, it's a good question. I think like many things in psychology and the experiences we have when it comes to our psychological health, there can be elements of both kind of both nature and nurture.
But I think, especially when it comes to personality and your behavior. A lot of that, you'll be predisposed to certain kind of ways of acting based on your genetics and, your kind of biochemical makeup, but your life experiences are fundamentally impactful and how you show up and evolve as a person.
And so I think if you're someone who's very kind of quintessential type A, you've probably had a number of life experiences that have Lead to that being the way you're successful in life and Reinforcing those types of behaviors over and over.
Beth Lawrence: Definitely like almost like a self fulfilling prophecy as well Because the more type a we are when we achieve success in our minds whether we realize it or not We attribute it to how type a we were similarly to with me with a plus with the anxiety I feel like if I worry about something or if I Problem solve for something, then if it happens, I'm like, well, it's fine.
I was prepared, but my husband will be like, you are just stressing yourself out about something that isn't here yet and might not happen.
Dr. Aly Goldstein: Exactly. And it's so hard to tell, right. It's so hard to tell if being really adamant about organization or deadlines, like that obviously has benefits because then you're on time and you get things done and, things are kind of documented.
But also, maybe you've spent too much time on that, or you didn't have to push yourself so hard to really make it on time and that kind of thing. And I, when I was doing more coaching work, I loved working with type a successful female leaders, because, especially in the workplace, right? There's this high degree of intelligence, but this strong degree of anxiety around perfectionism as well. And it's such an interesting combination. I think it to your point makes. People really successful because you have this element of high ambition as part of type A personality.
Beth Lawrence: Yes, definitely high ambition is that's something that across all the people that I've interviewed, we've all talked about having high ambition, but also that high stress.
And you talked about working with leaders who are perfectionists and that must be fascinating because as someone who at various points throughout the year, I have a team depending on what the client needs. But I have not built a culture the way you have.
And I've also not. Done it the same way that a lot of your clients probably have. How does that shown up, in leadership when it comes to permeating the organizational culture as a whole.
Dr. Aly Goldstein: It's an interesting point because again, being a type A leader, all those leaders are going to be different, right?
Cause every type A person will have different collection of traits. But I think there's two main things, one very positive trait, which is that organization and really setting a high bar and that kind of model. And I think on the flip side, because there's striving for perfection, really high expectations can also lead to micromanaging tendencies, which is the other side of it. Right? And so what I have found helpful is the organization and the communication, right? Like, I'm a little type a about making sure everybody has access to the information that they need. And then it's in an organized. place and it's well documented and you're probably very familiar with that.
Beth Lawrence: I can attest to the fact that Dr. Aly is extremely passionate about these things and very good at these things . We work very well together.
Dr. Aly Goldstein: Exactly. It's a compliment, especially working with another highly organized, ambitious person for sure. And that is makes for good culture because then you have transparent information, you have access to things that you need, and that's really important.
It also makes people feel equipped to ask questions and contribute because they know how to play into the system essentially. But you have to be okay with delegating and letting other people do things. It can be really hard to like, let go of control to some degree.
People who like hold things tightly, especially new leaders. That's a hard thing for any new leader to do. Start allowing other people to do work that they've been doing for a while, but especially when you're oriented around this very perfectionistic attitude.
Beth Lawrence: Oh my goodness. Absolutely.
And in the startup world, when it's your idea, when it's your thing, when it's your name, when it's your face or you and your co founders face, to slowly let go of that control must be really terrifying. But it strikes me working with both you and Anna that You were so prepared for that transition because even a year ago, you were still a young startup by most standards and when I came in, your systems that were buttoned up, I knew, everything I needed to do and who I needed to report to. I know you probably had to work very closely with Anna on that process. Was that difficult, the letting go process?
Dr. Aly Goldstein: Yeah, it's such an interesting point because in a startup, we're really making everything up as we go, right? We're designing everything new for the first time. And so we've come up with this general framework of let's figure out how to do it. And we document the system and then that makes us feel more comfortable allowing someone to step in while making it clear, like we've created this system, it's worked for us.
You can function on it, but we also want you to tell us your ideas for changes and improvement because I think what Anna and I do a really good job of also is recognizing we're not the absolute experts in everything, like, while we might know On the Goga, the best and the product, the best, it would be to our detriment to just try to make every single decision and hold everything closely and be micromanagers.
we just know, and research shows, there's just an abundance of evidence to show that that's not gonna. Be helpful and creates more work to do.
Beth Lawrence: Yeah, it definitely creates more work for people. It's funny because I found that in growing as a type, a person leader entrepreneur, I used to rely so heavily on instruction.
Just, you know, give me a box. I will do everything you want me to do within that box. And I think the more I've gone into entrepreneurship, there is no box anymore. No one is telling you what to do. There's no framework. Like you said, every day are starting from scratch and you're doing what you can with the information that you have and just making decisions on the fly.
And another thing that I love about working with you, and I think. Just observing. You are a type A person, right? You identify as a type A person.
Dr. Aly Goldstein: Yeah, I'd say definitely on this spectrum.
Beth Lawrence: Yeah, it's definitely a spectrum. I would say that One of the things that I love also about you is that you take critique Very well.
And I feel like sometimes as type a people, it can be very difficult when you're learning something, taking that perfectionism tendency out of it, wanting to be the best right away, and also taking critiques to heart without internalizing it. How do you approach taking feedback graciously while being nervous and learning something new.
Dr. Aly Goldstein: Yeah, and that's I think why I say I'm on a spectrum because Classic type A personality, people don't receive feedback very well, right?
Because it really is an attack on, I'm trying so hard, I'm putting in so much effort. I'm literally trying to be perfect. What do you mean you have feedback for me? And it can be pretty damaging and hard to accept. And I really just take a learner's mindset. Like I get excited to learn new things.
And I know that anybody who's providing me feedback, there's going to be some value, even if it's just simply Understanding how someone's seeing something a different way, right? I'm learning then about that person and other experiences. And especially when I'm getting feedback from an expert, I just kind of say, Aly, there's no way you would be more perfect than this person.
And what a blessing to be able to learn from this person. And how cool is that? And so I take that approach because it is going to do more harm to me and my growth and to my team and my company if I'm not open to feedback, because if I'm not constantly growing and getting better, then the company might not constantly grow and get better, right?
Because I won't be being additive to that. And so I think seeing beyond myself is the most helpful aspect to taking feedback because it's not just about me and my ego, right? It's, it's about bigger things than that.
Beth Lawrence: There's that organizational psychologist perspective. I love it.
That is a great answer. Thank you so much. And I was also thinking, talk to us about on the Goga's hub, what you built, why you built it.
Dr. Aly Goldstein: My co founder, Anna, started on the yoga in 2015, and she has really started the foundation for the success that we continue to experience year over year, and it's been so fun working with her; and so right now we have our well being hub, which is really a way for companies to automate their employee well being program in a way that still feels really customized and has a lot of.
High quality resources and experiences associated. So I like to say we have 2 core goals through our platform. We offer high quality experiences and content and resources for employees to develop and grow in their well, being, everything from emotional well, being financial well being.
And our second core goal is to take as much of the work off of HR or benefit managers' plate to do all the administration and kind of coordinate and run the employee wellbeing program as much as possible. So that includes communication templates, wellness themes, monthly wellness activities.
There's a whole lot built into it. And it's really important work. We spend so much time at work and we've just been really seeing this change landscape, especially with the pandemic of people saying, for me to work here, for you to keep me on board, you need to also be paying attention to me as a human.
And so I am really motivated by that and figuring out how can we really get high quality resources that are actually going to help people make a change and feel well in their workplace.
Beth Lawrence: I love that. That it is so incredible because when you think about workplace wellness, a lot of it historically has been a step challenge or something that you have to add to your plate. Whether you're a person that works there just in general, or God forbid, if you're in HR, you know, it's something that you have to add to this one portioned plate that we have, we still have to shove some more things into it. And so I love that you're still bringing that like type a approach to it. You're making it so that the person who cares so deeply about this for their company is able to deliver it in a way that goes right to the employees when they need it most.
And it strikes me that especially since the pandemic. We're also stressed and mental health is something that we're all talking about more openly. It's the reason that I have the plus in the type a plus podcast because of my anxiety and what I've experienced. And I would just love to know what are some top resources.
If you can give a few examples that employees are going to. just to find relief because we all have had that time during the day where you just feel like your head is going to explode and you don't know if you can handle anything else. Um, give some examples of some resources that, that you all have developed.
Dr. Aly Goldstein: Yeah, so especially like entering the fall, which that's a big season transition. A lot happens, right? Especially if you're a parent, you have kids going back to school.
It's the end of the summer, which hypothetically was relaxing, hopefully. It's a good time for checking in. And some of my favorite resources I've noticed other people are diving into, first is the expectation detox, which I find really powerful, along with defining wellness.
And so both of these are kind of resetting, what is wellness. And what is important? What about wellness is important to me? And what's my personal wellness? Because even you and I will have different definitions of how do we define wellness? And what does it mean to be well in your life?
And I just live my life through that lens of, like, where am I fitting wellness into my life? I'll also mention some of my favorite meditations are things like you are enough.
Like I'm putting in a lot of effort. What I'm doing is enough. There's of course, always going to be more that I could do, but I'm not always going to have more time to give or more energy to give. And so reminding yourself that actually taking care of yourself is really important and don't overdo it.
Beth Lawrence: Yes. You mentioned two words that I will take with me, which is expectation detox.
That is very powerful for a type a person because we give ourselves. Such high expectations sometimes, and then we're so mad at ourselves when we don't meet them. So just that little bit of reframing is works wonders. And it, what you said also reminded me of something I saw on Instagram and it said, a reminder that if you only have 30 percent to give and you gave 30%, you gave a hundred percent.
Because if you only have your functioning at 30 percent capacity that day and you give that full 30%, that was what you could give. And that is such a wonderful reminder, especially like you said, fall is busy for everybody. So those reminders that it's okay to continue that summer slow down a little bit into the fall is really, really great. Thank you so much for sharing that. That's awesome. Absolutely. Um, I'd love to know what you are type A about, if anything, in your personal life outside of work, or if it's really just, if you're really able to just let go of it.
Dr. Aly Goldstein: In my personal life, what am I type A about? I'm pretty type A, mostly about wellness. I'm pretty type A about, am I getting movement in? Because I just felt benefits of that. I'm also pretty type A about scheduling, both in work and outside of work. Both my work and personal calendars are color coded and awfully full of things going on. Yeah, very helpful. I'm also type A about my garden, which I'm really... I'm trying to lean into that as an area to practice letting go because it's a natural thing.
I have natural things that are growing and I can't get rid of all the weeds and I can't make the flowers grow exactly as I want them to grow. And so that's been good practice.
Beth Lawrence: Yes. Oh, gardening is something you definitely have to let go of. Actually, my parents went to forestry school.
They both majored in horticulture, so they know everything about plants. And I, during the pandemic, just started being interested in plants actually with, romaine lettuce of all things. I read that you can regrow it in a jar with water. So I did it and it took maybe three weeks and I think I got enough for a little bowl of salad and I was so excited and John was laughing at me like, babe, you could just buy more romaine lettuce, but it just, I got the bug.
And so now I have plants all over my house, but I'm always constantly calling my parents. Like I have yellow leaves. This one, the leaves fell off. My mom's like, Plants die, like leaves fall off, it happens. So that is definitely something that is a great thing to try to let go of and be more creative with.
Dr. Aly Goldstein: Yeah, absolutely. I'm reading this book and the main character is a botanist and I was just reading this passage where as part of her training, it was, you know, plants died and have to let them go. Like, if they're not going to grow in this space, there's nothing you can do to fix it and keep them alive.
And that, as a type a perfectionist, it's really hard to do.
Beth Lawrence: I totally agree. That, yes, that's very hard to do. There's one more thing that I wanted to touch on before we get off today, and it's an article that you wrote on LinkedIn about taking time off, and if you wouldn't mind sharing just a little bit of an overview of your experience, obviously we can link the article for the listeners, but I think that's very difficult, especially the busier you get.
Dr. Aly Goldstein: Yeah, it's such a good point. Like the busier you get, not all are false, but many false expectations that you put on yourself just grow and get bigger as your stress increases, which is really dangerous because then you miss that window of awareness and then you just hit max burnout and then you aren't functioning at, maybe 10 percent capacity and you're giving your all at 10%, which is not helping you recover. It's not helping your work and what you're trying to accomplish. And so that is certainly what I found myself in was just kind of too far gone the recovery zone and needed to just fully pull back for nearly a week.
And it was really hard to do because I wasn't used to doing that because I was feeling bad, right? There wasn't a physical, tangible thing to focus on and it was just Relax, which is like, well, what do you do to relax?
What can I accomplish? I definitely failed the first couple of days, answering messages. I was like, Oh, I'll do like light work and that'll make me feel better. And, what you mentioned earlier, our workplace culture, the humans on our team are just so empathic and.
So bought into a human centric culture. And we're literally, Aly, stop working. Like, please go away with love and kindness, you know? And, and that's what shed my expectations because I realized. Oh, well, I was trying to convince myself that these are the expectations that my team and workplace has of me to not take a break and just push through it.
It's actually coming from myself because I'm getting objective evidence from these team members that they actually do want me to rest. And that is the level it took for me to shed those kind of self imposed expectations. And. That allowed me to move through feeling like, guilty and selfish for taking time off and it allowed me to actually heal, which was obviously awesome and important.
Beth Lawrence: Oh my gosh, that's monumental. And I love that the team was the mirror that you needed. But really, we're avoiding whether by choice or just because you were so busy. I'm so glad that you had that experience and listeners, we'll link the article. If it's okay with Dr. Aly we'll link the article in the show notes. I really, um, saw myself in that and it was funny this past weekend, my husband went away and I had nothing to do. And I got so many steps just wandering around my house because I was like, what do I even do to relax any anymore? Like just the act of like getting myself to relax took almost a full day.
My husband literally left and said, Don't clean anything. Nothing needs to be done. Just relax. I did not listen for the first probably 24 hours. And then the next day I fell asleep at like 6 o'clock and just like out, you know, but It, we put these expectations on ourselves and sometimes we blame external factors thinking like, Oh, work expects me to do this.
But in reality, even if work wasn't knocking on your door, you'd be doing it anyway. That's such a powerful lesson.
Dr. Aly Goldstein: Yeah, it really is.
Beth Lawrence: I always love when I get to talk with you. So tell the listeners how to get in touch with you. If they're an individual and want to connect with you, follow you or if they work for a company and they're interested in exploring your workplace wellness options.
Dr. Aly Goldstein: Yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn, would love to connect, Dr. Aly Goldstein. And then also if you are interested in learning more about our wellness programming, you can go to our website www.onthegoga.Com and book a time to chat. And I would look forward to it.
Beth Lawrence: Wonderful. Thank you so much for coming, Aly! This was great. And I am glad that you were able to share your story with us.
Dr. Aly Goldstein: Thanks so much for having me, Beth. This was awesome.